MOTD Revamp

Discussion in 'News And Updates' started by SleepySirenMitsu, Jul 10, 2018.

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  1. SleepySirenMitsu

    SleepySirenMitsu MiTaSuNeKoNoNoNo Staff Member Owner

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    After careful consideration, we have decided that our MOTD could use some updates. Some rules will not be subject to change, such as use of racist, sexist, homophobic, or abusive terms.

    You May: Suggest any ideas you may have for any rules that needed to be added, removed, or edited. (Civilly please)

    You May Not: Get into arguments on this thread with other posters or staff. Meme/Shit post on this thread. Serious suggestions only please.

    Please remember that while we will take all ideas into consideration, there is no guarantee a rule will be changed. The MOTD will be evaluated carefully by myself and the higher-ups and changes will be made accordingly after review of staff and community opinion.

    This thread will be left up for 4 days so please make your posts within that time frame.

    Thank you,
    Mitsu.
     
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  2. Feldma

    Feldma Professional Zapper Shot Misser Donator Respected

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    Since we're looking at updating the MOTD, I'd just like to link what I had been working on:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DNItwZpyxmyUz-6DuspmbufejIGzr4RDtaAUPZnI2Ew/edit?usp=sharing

    Regarding what words / phrases should be allowed, maybe certain words (for example, "gay") could be permitted so long as it isn't being used in a slur. That being said, where do you draw the line?

    Personally I'm fine with keeping those rules the same, but... I suspect other people are not.

    Also, should barrel warnings be changed? (I've looked at it in the above link).
     
  3. UberZee

    UberZee I am the Glob-glo-gab-galab. Elite Trusted

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    I agree, personally speaking, there isn't really much need to have words such as ni**** & fa**** allowed since they are never really useful in conversation but rather have other phrases like gay being allowed with proper context, people going round calling everyone gay and homosexual is just stupid but using them in a joking manor for bants ("Your gay" for example) should be allowed.

    All the mental illness ones should stay obviously.

    NO Activating explosive devices near players when innocent eg: Blowing up barrels/turtles/incens without a warning.

    Innocents can't activate turtles, so remove that. Tad nitpicky I know.

    You will be banned for ONE year if you spoil a relatively recent show/movie for everyone, shit don't fly

    Maybe change this to reflect the new guidelines surrounding spoilers.

    And that's all for now, expect more to come after I come up with some more ideas.
     
  4. tac45original

    tac45original Member

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    Personally I think that quite a few rules are quite outdated and in need of reform or repeal.

    First of all, the spoiler rule should have a significantly reduced punishment from 1 year to 2 months. There have been a number of good people punished for this in the past and even with a "reduced" ban are still stuck on a 6 month ban.

    When it comes to the rules relating to Nazis, I think that this could be significantly eased. While it can become mingey, I think that falls into a separate category - I don't believe that many people are personally hurt when somebody carves a swastika into a wall. Yes, it may not be pleasant for everybody, but we should focus on the actual offence caused, not just looking and it and slamming the ban hammer.

    Sexist abuse rules should remain in place but I think that "gender" abuse needs to be more explicitly defined or repealed. Again, what is the offence when somebody says "I identify as an attack helicopter"? Making fun of this does not take aim at men or women or transgender people, rather the idea of having multiple gender identities.

    Prop kill rule is unnecessary and could be removed, as it falls under RDM. This only adds clutter to the MOTD.

    Remove the "You can swear as long as it's not excessive/abusive" part of the MOTD. This falls under minge.

    Mental illness rules can be reformed. Somebody calling somebody a retard as a joke doesn't offend everybody, and is a rule put in place for protection, not to exactly stop minges.. If somebody takes offence, deal with it on an individual basis.

    Calling somebody "gay" as a joke is not homophobic. People should be allowed to say this without risk of being banned, muted or gagged.

    Why are we not going to discuss the other forbidden topics though? Isn't it a good idea to at least have an honest and open discussion about it? Not often do we get an opportunity to freely express our opinions regarding the rules. Surely the key to reform lies in allowing free opinion?
     
  5. Col or Kick.

    Col or Kick. "I did, scrub" <- who dis? Elite Respected

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    Most of the Protective Rules are put in place to prevent these situations. Laxing on rules such as Nazi/Sexism/Racism/Homophobic jokes will just lead to a lot more of it. The server (as far as I know) doesn't have Awarn and if it did, it would clutter more with these rules.
     
  6. SleepySirenMitsu

    SleepySirenMitsu MiTaSuNeKoNoNoNo Staff Member Owner

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    Spoilers I would be willing to change as well as tweak the rules about explosives and barrels/props.

    Personally, I have never punished person for the "Attack helicopter" thing because I just think it's nonsense, nor have I ever witnessed anyone punishing/being punished for saying such.

    As for the gay thing, I would be willing to discuss context sensitive changes for the rule but if it's to be used as a genuine insult then it's a no.

    The retard thing is..iffy. I know quite a few people who would be very offended by that and the several down's jokes that I've witnessed. With the context thing it will be up to staff to decide on whether the way it's being used or not is appropriate.

    The excessive swearing thing could possibly be removed as it does count as mingey yes.

    And as for the whole Nazi thing it would again fall under context and be carefully monitored. But as I said, some rules specifically, like use of the N word or F word will not be up for discussion. There is no way those type of words can be monitored without it going out of control.
     
  7. tac45original

    tac45original Member

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    We can prevent these situations for a more relaxed way of looking at it though. We don't need to kick/gag/mute/ban people for using these words constantly. I think that it is time that we move on, and try and be more accommodating to everybody.
     
  8. tac45original

    tac45original Member

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    I appreciate your comment. My concern ultimately is is that we are punishing people, often good people, who aren't minges, for saying these things every once in a while. Often it happens to that questioning it seems to be a risky move.

    I do agree that there are some issues that would come with reforming this - however, I think that it's important that the admins deal with certain violations or offences on an individual basis. Dismissing it as "too much work" is copping out, and I think that just because it is challenging doesn't mean that we can't at least try, for the time being.
     
  9. SleepySirenMitsu

    SleepySirenMitsu MiTaSuNeKoNoNoNo Staff Member Owner

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    I'm sorry Tac but I'm not going to relax on derogatory insults. I will always do my best to make sure people having sufficient warning before we mute, gag, or kick. But I won't let it go unchecked. The only time we will immediately mute or gag is if the person is spamming it. Then we warn them, unmute/gag, and will re-mute or gag if it continues.

    If people want to ask about it I would ask that they please use admin chat as to not make it a public thing since that tends to spur people on at times.
     
  10. A-J

    A-J Never gonna give a rock Staff Member TTT Admin

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    Language rules wise its simply easier and fairer to not allow the words to be used regardless of the context. However the admin on at the time can of course be lenient on accidental slip ups and take context into account when dealing with it. In my opinion there is a good reason these rules exist although there are certainly good people who could be trusted to tactfully use sensitive language. However the other side is that generally people do not join GMOD to have a serious talk about the good and bad aspects of Nazism. There are plenty of other places dedicated to discuss sensitive or moot topics with like minded individuals. Another thing to note is that free speech goes both ways. You may have your opinion but we can also tell you to sod off. As an admin I do try (not always successfully) to be more lenient on accidental slip ups or unintentional usage such as saying "Wow am I blind or just retarded" which is clearly not meant to insult. However I think it's more practical to simply have the rules in place and allow the exceptions to pass, rather than attempting to explain to a troll joining the server the subtle art of sensitivity.

    Some unwritten rules may as well be written down if there is an update to them so here are some ideas:
    • You may NEVER force somebody to use a map/portable tester or coerce somebody to accidentally use a tester. Punishable by __(insert)__
    • You may NEVER use a glitch/exploit of the map to your advantage such as avoiding environment damage or becoming invulnerable. Punishable by __(insert)__
    • Targetting a player consistently through following/bullying/harrassing/t baiting or any other method is considered Minging and you will be warned followed potentially by a week ban.
    • [may need rewording] Backchatting or undermining an admin is considered mingey, if you have an issue with any admin or their behaviour you let a Community Manager know on the forums. Do not start arguments. [really unsure how to word this one]
    Side note, suggestions are appreciated but be aware of closed topics or things already suggested above.
     
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  11. RainbowGauntlet

    RainbowGauntlet Servers Broke Staff Member

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    When it comes to the rules relating to Nazis, I think that this could be significantly eased. While it can become mingey, I think that falls into a separate category - I don't believe that many people are personally hurt when somebody carves a swastika into a wall. Yes, it may not be pleasant for everybody, but we should focus on the actual offence caused, not just looking and it and slamming the ban hammer.

    This rule is in place because it is a pretty normal practice to not allow nazi imagery just about everywhere. I don't care if it is offensive or not, I don't wanna have situations like we used to before that rule was put in to place. If your humor requires the use of swastikas and killing jews then that's your deal but not on the server.

    Prop kill rule is unnecessary and could be removed, as it falls under RDM. This only adds clutter to the MOTD.

    This was added as a separate rule do to a series of constant mass prop killings that people would do, it did not result in reports but obstructed the flow of the game and resulted in a lot of innocent bystander damage

    Mental illness rules can be reformed. Somebody calling somebody a retard as a joke doesn't offend everybody, and is a rule put in place for protection, not to exactly stop minges.. If somebody takes offence, deal with it on an individual basis.

    This just falls under being a cunt, sure context matters and most of the time I wouldn't punish someone for casually saying it but this falls under people harassing or fighting on the server.

    As for why the rules are specific in these cases it's because people like to yell and scream that it did not specifically say in the rules this or that.

    I find it so odd that people insist on the mentality of "I should be able to joke about killing jews and calling shit gay because no one is offended" it is not about offense.
    If you wouldn't yell at the top of your lungs in public in front of 32 strangers "Hitler did nothing wrong gas the jews" and then draw a swastika on the ground why would you wanna do that in a virtual space? Why would it be funny either way?
    Those jokes are fine in private and anyone who knows me personally knows that I don't have an issue with offensive jokes but the server is a public place filled with young people and should be treated as such.
    If the only negative word you can use to describe something is calling it gay then I would suggest you expand your vocab a little. Though I think you would find it hard to find someone offended by someone calling something gay, it isn't needed and I am not personally a fan of having the word gay = bad.

    Spoiler rule I kinda agree with but with context, if someone accidentally spoils something then I could see that been let slide and I have in the past however people at the time that rule was made were going to see new movies day one and joining the server with "Blank person dies"
     
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  12. tac45original

    tac45original Member

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    Sure, I understand your concern about it. I see that some insults can't be present on the server. However it's the idea that some people may use them who are actually alright, but because they have used them are demonised as minges who shouldn't be present on the server.

    I am worried that we have turned away people for the last two years just because they have used these words. Those of us that have stayed and have sought reform ultimately had more patience in the end than them. I want to see more people come to this server.

    Going back to the Nazism part of things - I am sure you remember that we had a donor on the server once who had the name Adolf Hitler. He was not mingey or abusive, followed the rules and played nicely. However, because of a few more people, who did abuse and make racial comments, he had to change his name due to a crackdown on Nazi things on the server.
     
  13. A-J

    A-J Never gonna give a rock Staff Member TTT Admin

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    Tac this is a suggestions thread, not a huge discussion thread. You may suggest rule changes as anyone else can however the higher ups have the final say and its very clear from both Rain and Mitsu that certain things will not change.
     
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  14. tac45original

    tac45original Member

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    I'm not sure if this is the case, I can't remember off the top of my head, but doesn't a prop kill now show who the person that threw the prop was?
    I agree that there are issues with people who say "its not in the rules", but ultimately common sense should prevail.
    I don't personally make Nazi jokes but they ae jokes. It isn't funny but just because it isn't funny doesn't mean by default they should be banned. Calling someone gay doesn't necessarily mean they are bad, it's just a silly joke people make. again, I don't use it, but I think that some people can use it in a more "tasteful" manner.
     
  15. tac45original

    tac45original Member

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    AJ - I do not mean to clutter the thread. However, some of these things are still worth discussing, I don't think that we always need to resort to "x said this therefore shut up".

    "Backchatting or undermining an admin is considered mingey, if you have an issue with any admin or their behaviour you let a Community Manager know on the forums. Do not start arguments. [really unsure how to word this one]" < I think that this rule causes problems. Admins aren't invincible. I've seen times where admins deal with certain issues, yet if you post a PM you get muted or kicked? Is this fair to the community?
     
  16. SleepySirenMitsu

    SleepySirenMitsu MiTaSuNeKoNoNoNo Staff Member Owner

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    Those people may not be bad people in general sure, but just because they use it elsewhere doesn't mean we'll let them use it here. There are plenty of other places around where things like that are acceptable but this server won't ever be one of them.

    No..the nazi stuff is not funny and personally I'm sick of the countless "oven" jokes I've heard over the years and the playing Hitlers speeches over the mic just gets..annoying. It's in very poor taste to joke about genocide and it is one rule where as a server owner I am putting my foot down.

    You can absolutely question an admin or any of the staff but doing it respectfully is key. Questioning our authority in front of the entire server while we are trying to keep control of things is often more hindrance than help.
     
  17. RainbowGauntlet

    RainbowGauntlet Servers Broke Staff Member

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    "but ultimately common sense should prevail."
    You would think that, but you are wrong my friend.
    it shows who killed you but if a random bowling ball comes out of no where, hits you for 30hp most of the time people will just be annoyed but don't wanna bother reporting
     
  18. A-J

    A-J Never gonna give a rock Staff Member TTT Admin

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    I think I was misinterpreted in that suggestion as I worded it poorly but basically it gets frustrating to have other players constantly bringing up admin dealings or basically encouraging minges, Mitsu said it better in the post above this one about questioning authority.

    I also did not mean to say 'shut up' but you need to understand that some matters have been pretty firmly closed by both owners and it becomes pretty pointless to continue bringing it up.
     
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  19. tac45original

    tac45original Member

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    I do get what you mean. I think it's important to promote civil discourse though. Like I said, just because something has been ruled down doesn't mean it can't be critiqued. It's not a pointless exercise if others agree. I know that "minges may be encouraged" but from what I've seen often they aren't. What's considered mingey or not is often grossly overstated, somebody calling for someone to be unbanned isn't really a mingey action.

    I know that it is frustrating but the admins should be more ready to deal with community opinion and how people feel. Questioning authority is good if done respectfully, as Mitsu said. It shouldn't be shut down. Admins are accountable to the community.
     
  20. SleepySirenMitsu

    SleepySirenMitsu MiTaSuNeKoNoNoNo Staff Member Owner

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    Often times, especially when the server is particularly loud and busy, and there's a million different things going on with reports and such, it can put the staff in a difficult position. I will admit there have been mistakes and knee jerk reactions over things said/posted and I have done my best to rectify any such mistaken punishments especially since I've been back. But what you all have to understand is sometimes an admin has to make a split decision on how to react to a server situation. And we may not always make what seems like the right decision to outside point of view. If we do make a genuinely wrong decision we will do our best to fix the situation and apologize.

    However, most of the time there are things behind the scenes that players do not see (Such as in admin chat or reports) that will contribute to a punishment. So if people start saying in public about how wrong we are while not knowing the whole story it can cause more trouble and instead of staff being able to calmly explain the rhyme or reason of the punishment we have people going off on us which can easily turn into an argument.
     
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